USA Today bestselling author Dan Alatorre has 50+ titles published in more than 120 countries and over a dozen languages.
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23 thoughts on “Gosh, what about that?”
It seems that Billy Wilder and K.M. Weiland have different interpretations of the term “plot point”. Personally, I prefer the idea of crafting memorable scenes, and it seems natural that good plot points are memorable.
To be fair, I can’t say what context Wilder was in because it’s a quote and because he directed movies, but to me storytelling is storytelling and I wonder about being more subtle. It’s intriguing.
Very interesting point. Hmmm, my first reaction to Wilder’s statement was to lock on to the word “elegant.” I agree with karladia that “good plot points are memorable” but perhaps are made so by the subtle narrative progression towards that moment–a logical progression that is so smooth (elegant) that the reader experiences deep appreciation and insight for that critical scene–and never forgets it. Does that make any sense? 🙂
When I took that screen writing workshop, they literally laid out the times (in minutes),throughout the story, where they felt the audience would require a shift in action (plot point). I can see it in films. However I believe that the talent of the writer to make it work without being blatant IS an art. A well told story makes the reader feel it is their idea to turn the page.
I feel like turning points are the big memorable actions/scenes. But plot points in general are the work and that should be hidden. It should feel a seamless flow to the turning point, an escalator if you will, not a long set of stairs.
the more subtle you are at hiding your plot points, the better you are as a writer, and the less likely you are to insult your audience’s intelligence.
When story points are pounded home, and worse the author goes on to lead me as to how I should feel about what just happened, it like saying, hey dumbass…I have to spell this out for you are you’ll never get it.
Aha. There you go. So you don’t camouflage them, but you let the reader discover them and see they were there, you don’t have to pound it home with a neon light and a big finger pointing at it saying there it is.
You know, I keep coming back to the subtle aspect of it. I would’ve thought plot points were easily identifiable and therefore the peak of drama or something. To consider them subtle means some won’t realize they stumbled across them. And that’s fine, it is not something I really thought about. Got me to thinking.
As always, I want to be a great writer, so when somebody says great writing is… I need to consider subtlety. That really got me thinking because I think I am rarely subtle with a plot point. My editor may disagree.
It begs for examples from Wilder so we can all go aha. Considering his work, I’d say he was on to something. It was a different era and he worked with the biggest of big stars, icon Marylyn Monroe, but he had a style that was certainly elegant.
I agree Allison. Subtle so that the reader is lead gently into them and then BAM. Didn’t see that one coming did you? Or that is what they are supposed to feel like.
I can certainly understand it this way: the things that I discover in the book as opposed to the book feeding them to me, when they turn out to be right I am much more exuberant
I don’t think the two definitions, or thoughts, on plot points are mutually exclusive. They are the points where the story is progressed by leaps and are memorable, but they don’t have to beat you over the head and say “here I am!” – as someone else pointed out above, you don’t want to lead your reader into what they’re “supposed” to think/feel.
Right. I think that’s becoming the consensus. I never meant for them to be opposing opinions, I simply looked for a quick and easy definition of plot points to for anybody who didn’t really know what a plot point was.
And then the subtle and elegant aspect kinda got to me.
I think I kind of get it…Maybe? Like the Titanic example. The plot point is “boat hits iceberg.” But that isn’t really the STORY. The story is the people and their relationships and the contrast between before and after. ???
I gravitate towards the pointless, so I dunno. 🙂
Dan Alatorre 
It seems that Billy Wilder and K.M. Weiland have different interpretations of the term “plot point”. Personally, I prefer the idea of crafting memorable scenes, and it seems natural that good plot points are memorable.
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To be fair, I can’t say what context Wilder was in because it’s a quote and because he directed movies, but to me storytelling is storytelling and I wonder about being more subtle. It’s intriguing.
LikeLike
Very interesting point. Hmmm, my first reaction to Wilder’s statement was to lock on to the word “elegant.” I agree with karladia that “good plot points are memorable” but perhaps are made so by the subtle narrative progression towards that moment–a logical progression that is so smooth (elegant) that the reader experiences deep appreciation and insight for that critical scene–and never forgets it. Does that make any sense? 🙂
I agree with you it’s definitely intriguing.
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It completely stupefied me. I’ll be thinking about this all day.
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When I took that screen writing workshop, they literally laid out the times (in minutes),throughout the story, where they felt the audience would require a shift in action (plot point). I can see it in films. However I believe that the talent of the writer to make it work without being blatant IS an art. A well told story makes the reader feel it is their idea to turn the page.
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Great point!
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I feel like turning points are the big memorable actions/scenes. But plot points in general are the work and that should be hidden. It should feel a seamless flow to the turning point, an escalator if you will, not a long set of stairs.
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the more subtle you are at hiding your plot points, the better you are as a writer, and the less likely you are to insult your audience’s intelligence.
When story points are pounded home, and worse the author goes on to lead me as to how I should feel about what just happened, it like saying, hey dumbass…I have to spell this out for you are you’ll never get it.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Aha. There you go. So you don’t camouflage them, but you let the reader discover them and see they were there, you don’t have to pound it home with a neon light and a big finger pointing at it saying there it is.
Got it. Thanks!
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Like you didn’t know that. Lol. 🙂
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You know, I keep coming back to the subtle aspect of it. I would’ve thought plot points were easily identifiable and therefore the peak of drama or something. To consider them subtle means some won’t realize they stumbled across them. And that’s fine, it is not something I really thought about. Got me to thinking.
As always, I want to be a great writer, so when somebody says great writing is… I need to consider subtlety. That really got me thinking because I think I am rarely subtle with a plot point. My editor may disagree.
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Maybe the point about subtlety is about not using cheap ploys solely for shock value, like killing the MC or something.
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It begs for examples from Wilder so we can all go aha. Considering his work, I’d say he was on to something. It was a different era and he worked with the biggest of big stars, icon Marylyn Monroe, but he had a style that was certainly elegant.
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I agree Allison. Subtle so that the reader is lead gently into them and then BAM. Didn’t see that one coming did you? Or that is what they are supposed to feel like.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I can certainly understand it this way: the things that I discover in the book as opposed to the book feeding them to me, when they turn out to be right I am much more exuberant
LikeLiked by 1 person
I don’t think the two definitions, or thoughts, on plot points are mutually exclusive. They are the points where the story is progressed by leaps and are memorable, but they don’t have to beat you over the head and say “here I am!” – as someone else pointed out above, you don’t want to lead your reader into what they’re “supposed” to think/feel.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Right. I think that’s becoming the consensus. I never meant for them to be opposing opinions, I simply looked for a quick and easy definition of plot points to for anybody who didn’t really know what a plot point was.
And then the subtle and elegant aspect kinda got to me.
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This is absolutely true in children’s books. Indirect and subtle is far more powerful than direct.
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Huh. Never thought about that.
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That’s one of the reasons animals are so popular. It’s them, not me. Know what I mean?
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Great point.
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I think I kind of get it…Maybe? Like the Titanic example. The plot point is “boat hits iceberg.” But that isn’t really the STORY. The story is the people and their relationships and the contrast between before and after. ???
I gravitate towards the pointless, so I dunno. 🙂
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Ha. You had me convinced until that last line!
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